Listening to the morning show on Five Live this morning, there was a discussion sparked by recent changes to the law that meant Judges now decide how long convicted murderers should stay in gaol instead of politicians. One of the guests was Des Saddler (not sure on the spelling) who's daughter and two grand-children were killed by his daughter's second husband. The killer was given a mere 13-year sentence for all three murders and Des was there to put the view he should be in prison for life.

The second caller to the show, one David, held forth on re-introducing the death penalty rather than keeping convicted murderers in prison supported by the taxes of their victims. Des, asked if the death penalty would have made the death of his daughter easier to bear, was against it. David, then showing he hadn't really been keeping up with the show, put forward a scenario where one of Des's children was kidnapped and killed and the murderer caught and sentenced to life in prison - and if that happening would change Des's views on the death penalty...

You might be able to listen to the BBC stream here until next week - it starts about nine minutes in. Or I uploaded a brief excerpt: